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Goodbye

OpenSSL - User mailing list
  • topic: Change some words by accepting PR#12089
  •  
  • 4 against, 3 for, no absensions

 

I am at a loss for words.

 

I can’t contribute to a project that feels this way.  The OMC (list at [1], a picture of some of them at [2] although it includes non-OMC members) is, in my view, on the wrong side of history. I hope that in time, the four men who voted against it will develop more – what, empathy? – and that sometime in the future this PR [3], or similar, will be merged.  Until then, I will do what I have to in order to insure that Akamai’s needs for FIPS are met and once 3.0 is released, I will be fully applying my modest talents elsewhere.

 

I have closed all non-FIPS PR’s, and as soon as I see this message in my inbox, I will unsubscribe from this list. I can be reached as rsalz at akamai.com.

 

[1] https://www.openssl.org/community/omc.html

[2] https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2019/05/23/f2f-committers-day/

[3] https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pull/12089

 

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RE: Goodbye

Marc Roos

What a non-sense changing these words. Also hypocrite of Akamai, looking
at the composition of the executive team.

https://www.akamai.com/us/en/about/leadership/executive-team/

https://www.akamai.com/us/en/about/leadership/executive-team/operating-committee.jsp





-----Original Message-----
To: openssl-users
Subject: Goodbye

* topic: Change some words by accepting PR#12089

*

* 4 against, 3 for, no absensions

 

I am at a loss for words.

 

I can’t contribute to a project that feels this way.  The OMC (list at
[1], a picture of some of them at [2] although it includes non-OMC
members) is, in my view, on the wrong side of history. I hope that in
time, the four men who voted against it will develop more – what,
empathy? – and that sometime in the future this PR [3], or similar,
will be merged.  Until then, I will do what I have to in order to insure
that Akamai’s needs for FIPS are met and once 3.0 is released, I will
be fully applying my modest talents elsewhere.

 

I have closed all non-FIPS PR’s, and as soon as I see this message in
my inbox, I will unsubscribe from this list. I can be reached as rsalz
at akamai.com.

 

[1] https://www.openssl.org/community/omc.html

[2] https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2019/05/23/f2f-committers-day/ 
<https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2019/05/23/f2f-committers-day/>

[3] https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pull/12089 
<https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pull/12089>

 


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Re: Goodbye

dalek
In reply to this post by OpenSSL - User mailing list
On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 9:03 AM Marc Roos <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> What a non-sense changing these words. Also hypocrite of Akamai, looking
> at the composition of the executive team.
>
> https://www.akamai.com/us/en/about/leadership/executive-team/
>
> https://www.akamai.com/us/en/about/leadership/executive-team/operating-committee.jsp
>
      To me it reminds me of the Minitrue RecDep.

>
> -----Original Message-----
> To: openssl-users
> Subject: Goodbye
>
> *       topic: Change some words by accepting PR#12089
>
> *
>
> *       4 against, 3 for, no absensions
>
>
>
> I am at a loss for words.
>
>
>
> I can’t contribute to a project that feels this way.  The OMC (list at
> [1], a picture of some of them at [2] although it includes non-OMC
> members) is, in my view, on the wrong side of history. I hope that in
> time, the four men who voted against it will develop more – what,
> empathy? – and that sometime in the future this PR [3], or similar,
> will be merged.  Until then, I will do what I have to in order to insure
> that Akamai’s needs for FIPS are met and once 3.0 is released, I will
> be fully applying my modest talents elsewhere.
>
>
>
> I have closed all non-FIPS PR’s, and as soon as I see this message in
> my inbox, I will unsubscribe from this list. I can be reached as rsalz
> at akamai.com.
>
>
>
> [1] https://www.openssl.org/community/omc.html
>
> [2] https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2019/05/23/f2f-committers-day/
> <https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2019/05/23/f2f-committers-day/>
>
> [3] https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pull/12089
> <https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pull/12089>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Goodbye

JordanBrown
In reply to this post by Marc Roos
On 7/3/2020 6:03 AM, Marc Roos wrote:
Also hypocrite of Akamai, looking at the composition of the executive team.

I think it's pretty clear that Rich was speaking as himself, not as a representative of Akamai.

-- 
Jordan Brown, Oracle ZFS Storage Appliance, Oracle Solaris
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Re: Goodbye

Karl Denninger
On 7/3/2020 13:45, Jordan Brown wrote:
On 7/3/2020 6:03 AM, Marc Roos wrote:
Also hypocrite of Akamai, looking at the composition of the executive team.

I think it's pretty clear that Rich was speaking as himself, not as a representative of Akamai.

Sorry, that's not how it works.

You post and reference a corporate email address, which he did, you just took the action under the banner of the company.

Akamai is entirely and justifiably exposed to being "canceled" on that basis.

--
Karl Denninger
[hidden email]
The Market Ticker
[S/MIME encrypted email preferred]

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Re: Goodbye

Viktor Dukhovni

This is not the appropriate forum for dissecting the personal actions
individual contributors.

Let's return to OpenSSL- related topics.  It would be best if there
are no further posts in this thread.

--
    Viktor.
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Re: Goodbye

JordanBrown
In reply to this post by Karl Denninger
On 7/3/2020 10:46 AM, Karl Denninger wrote:
On 7/3/2020 13:45, Jordan Brown wrote:
On 7/3/2020 6:03 AM, Marc Roos wrote:
Also hypocrite of Akamai, looking at the composition of the executive team.
I think it's pretty clear that Rich was speaking as himself, not as a representative of Akamai.

Sorry, that's not how it works.

You post and reference a corporate email address, which he did, you just took the action under the banner of the company.

Akamai is entirely and justifiably exposed to being "canceled" on that basis.


I don't think that debating that question will be helpful, so I won't.

Perhaps I should be absolutely clear:  When I say "I think ...", I am expressing my personal opinion and not the opinion of my employer, Oracle.  I disclose my employer in my signature so as to be totally transparent, not to serve as a spokesperson for the company.

(And if anybody is curious, I use one of my personal throw-away addresses so that my work address doesn't get harvested for spam.  If for some reason you'd like verification of my employment, send me e-mail privately and I'll reply from the work address.)
-- 
Jordan Brown, Oracle ZFS Storage Appliance, Oracle Solaris
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Re: Goodbye

tincanteksup
In reply to this post by OpenSSL - User mailing list


On 03/07/2020 13:51, Salz, Rich via openssl-users wrote:

>    *   topic: Change some words by accepting PR#12089
>
>    *
>
>    *   4 against, 3 for, no absensions
>
> I am at a loss for words.
>
> I can’t contribute to a project that feels this way.  The OMC (list at [1], a picture of some of them at [2] although it includes non-OMC members) is, in my view, on the wrong side of history. I hope that in time, the four men who voted against it will develop more – what, empathy? – and that sometime in the future this PR [3], or similar, will be merged.  Until then, I will do what I have to in order to insure that Akamai’s needs for FIPS are met and once 3.0 is released, I will be fully applying my modest talents elsewhere.
>
> I have closed all non-FIPS PR’s, and as soon as I see this message in my inbox, I will unsubscribe from this list. I can be reached as rsalz at akamai.com.
>
> [1] https://www.openssl.org/community/omc.html
> [2] https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2019/05/23/f2f-committers-day/
> [3] https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pull/12089
>

Democracy .. it's not every-bodies cup of tea.

Remember:

Sticks and stones may break my bones
but WORDS will never hurt me.

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Re: Goodbye

tincanteksup

If you are lucky .. enjoy your 4th

Most of us are not so lucky ..

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Re: Goodbye

Nico Williams
In reply to this post by JordanBrown
On Fri, Jul 03, 2020 at 05:45:22PM +0000, Jordan Brown wrote:
> On 7/3/2020 6:03 AM, Marc Roos wrote:
> > Also hypocrite of Akamai, looking at the composition of the executive team.
>
> I think it's pretty clear that Rich was speaking as himself, not as a
> representative of Akamai.

Hi Jordan,

It's pretty clear that Rich was insinuating that the OMC are a bunch of
racists, and that they should be canceled.  He didn't _say_ it, but
strongly implied it, or at least that was the message received by some.
It's fair to suppose it was the intended message.  And Rich specifically
referred to his employer, not in his signature as you refer to yours,
but in the text of his post.  No, Rich did not say his words and actions
represent Akamai, but still, he referred to Akamai specifically.  More
about this below.

The OMC is staffed by real people, with real families, and the
disagreement here did not rise to the point where one should dox the OMC
members and imply that their employers should terminate their
employment.  They do not deserve what Rich implies.  I know one of them
well, one who voted against Rich's PR, and I assure you he's no racist.

Rich didn't care to be polite.  No!  He meant to _provoke_, and not just
replies like Marc's, but actual action against the OMC's members.  I
won't call out Akamai on account of Rich's behavior because I don't want
to do what he did, but I don't blame anyone else for doing it -- Rich
made it fair game by doing it first.  But we must call out behavior like
Rich's -- it's simply not acceptable.

Nico
--
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Re: Goodbye

Eliot Lear
Can we please put the knives a way?  Rich has given a lot to this
community.  As an openssl user, I'd rather the conversation moved along.




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Re: Goodbye

Dan Kegel-2
Likewise.  Thank you, Rich!

When this issue came up in Buildbot 5 years ago, there was a fair bit of... discussion, see
The resolution back then was to rename 'slave' to 'worker', which was a LOT of
work, and seemed to satisfy everybody at the time.
It came up again recently, see
and they're now looking at whether and how to address the word 'master'.

Not having noticed this discussion in openssl until today, here's my two cents as an openssl user:
I think an incremental approach is fine, clean up the most offensive word or two
first, and then see where things land.  And if it can't start immediately, that's
ok, it took buildbot a while to come up with the needed consensus and 
elbow grease.
- Dan



On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 11:10 PM Eliot Lear <[hidden email]> wrote:
Can we please put the knives a way?  Rich has given a lot to this
community.  As an openssl user, I'd rather the conversation moved along.



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Re: Goodbye

Donald R Laster Jr

Having just noticed the last 4 or 5 emails related to this thread I have to say this is classic political correctness garbage.
   Don

Dan Kegel wrote on 07/04/2020 11:35 AM:

> Likewise.  Thank you, Rich!
>
> When this issue came up in Buildbot 5 years ago, there was a fair bit of... discussion, see
> http://trac.buildbot.net/ticket/2340
> The resolution back then was to rename 'slave' to 'worker', which was a LOT of
> work, and seemed to satisfy everybody at the time.
> It came up again recently, see
> https://github.com/buildbot/buildbot/issues/5382
> and they're now looking at whether and how to address the word 'master'.
>
> Not having noticed this discussion in openssl until today, here's my two cents as an openssl user:
> I think an incremental approach is fine, clean up the most offensive word or two
> first, and then see where things land.  And if it can't start immediately, that's
> ok, it took buildbot a while to come up with the needed consensus and
> elbow grease.
> - Dan
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 11:10 PM Eliot Lear <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Can we please put the knives a way?  Rich has given a lot to this
>     community.  As an openssl user, I'd rather the conversation moved along.
>
>
>

--
==============================================================

Donald R. Laster Jr.
25 Heidl Ave
West Long Branch, NJ 07764

Email : [hidden email]
         [hidden email] (Cell)

Phone : (732) 263-9235         (Home Evening)
         (732) 263-9236         (Home Office)
         (732) 539-5658         (Cell)
         (732) 263-9280         (Fax)

--------------------------------------------------------------

    Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test
    a man's character, give him power.  -- Abraham Lincoln

==============================================================
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Re: Goodbye

Dan Kegel-2
It might be worth reminding folks of
https://www.openssl.org/community/conduct.html 
which says
"We strive to be an open and inclusive community where anyone can contribute."
- Dan


On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 11:02 AM Donald R Laster Jr <[hidden email]> wrote:

Having just noticed the last 4 or 5 emails related to this thread I have to say this is classic political correctness garbage.
   Don

Dan Kegel wrote on 07/04/2020 11:35 AM:
> Likewise.  Thank you, Rich!
>
> When this issue came up in Buildbot 5 years ago, there was a fair bit of... discussion, see
> http://trac.buildbot.net/ticket/2340
> The resolution back then was to rename 'slave' to 'worker', which was a LOT of
> work, and seemed to satisfy everybody at the time.
> It came up again recently, see
> https://github.com/buildbot/buildbot/issues/5382
> and they're now looking at whether and how to address the word 'master'.
>
> Not having noticed this discussion in openssl until today, here's my two cents as an openssl user:
> I think an incremental approach is fine, clean up the most offensive word or two
> first, and then see where things land.  And if it can't start immediately, that's
> ok, it took buildbot a while to come up with the needed consensus and
> elbow grease.
> - Dan
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 11:10 PM Eliot Lear <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Can we please put the knives a way?  Rich has given a lot to this
>     community.  As an openssl user, I'd rather the conversation moved along.
>
>
>

--
==============================================================

Donald R. Laster Jr.
25 Heidl Ave
West Long Branch, NJ 07764

Email : [hidden email]
         [hidden email] (Cell)

Phone : (732) 263-9235         (Home Evening)
         (732) 263-9236         (Home Office)
         (732) 539-5658         (Cell)
         (732) 263-9280         (Fax)

--------------------------------------------------------------

    Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test
    a man's character, give him power.  -- Abraham Lincoln

==============================================================

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Re: Goodbye

Thomas J. Hruska
In reply to this post by OpenSSL - User mailing list
Rich, I just want to wish you well on your future endeavors.  You've got
valuable skills as a software developer.  Hopefully whatever negative
experiences you've recently encountered won't dissuade you from
contributing to open source projects in the future.  There are, after
all, an infinite number of exciting things to still be done in software.

--
Thomas Hruska
Shining Light Productions

Home of BMP2AVI and Win32 OpenSSL.
http://www.slproweb.com/
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Re: Goodbye

Viktor Dukhovni
In reply to this post by Dan Kegel-2

The issue is moot for now, let's move on.

--
    Viktor.
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Re: Goodbye

Phillip Hallam-Baker
In reply to this post by Donald R Laster Jr
For many people involved in developing cryptographic infrastructures, politics are a major concern.

Getting the politics correct is important.

The true power in this world lies in shaping what people believe. What my friend Joe Nye calls 'soft power'. To suggest that choice of language is irrelevant is ill-informed to sneer at it is plain stupid.


On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 1:46 PM Donald R Laster Jr <[hidden email]> wrote:

Having just noticed the last 4 or 5 emails related to this thread I have to say this is classic political correctness garbage.
   Don

Dan Kegel wrote on 07/04/2020 11:35 AM:
> Likewise.  Thank you, Rich!
>
> When this issue came up in Buildbot 5 years ago, there was a fair bit of... discussion, see
> http://trac.buildbot.net/ticket/2340
> The resolution back then was to rename 'slave' to 'worker', which was a LOT of
> work, and seemed to satisfy everybody at the time.
> It came up again recently, see
> https://github.com/buildbot/buildbot/issues/5382
> and they're now looking at whether and how to address the word 'master'.
>
> Not having noticed this discussion in openssl until today, here's my two cents as an openssl user:
> I think an incremental approach is fine, clean up the most offensive word or two
> first, and then see where things land.  And if it can't start immediately, that's
> ok, it took buildbot a while to come up with the needed consensus and
> elbow grease.
> - Dan
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 11:10 PM Eliot Lear <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Can we please put the knives a way?  Rich has given a lot to this
>     community.  As an openssl user, I'd rather the conversation moved along.
>
>
>

--
==============================================================

Donald R. Laster Jr.
25 Heidl Ave
West Long Branch, NJ 07764

Email : [hidden email]
         [hidden email] (Cell)

Phone : (732) 263-9235         (Home Evening)
         (732) 263-9236         (Home Office)
         (732) 539-5658         (Cell)
         (732) 263-9280         (Fax)

--------------------------------------------------------------

    Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test
    a man's character, give him power.  -- Abraham Lincoln

==============================================================
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Re: Goodbye

Bugzilla from frans@fransdb.nl
In reply to this post by OpenSSL - User mailing list
On 03-07-2020 14:51, Salz, Rich via openssl-users wrote:
  • topic: Change some words by accepting PR#12089
  •  
  • 4 against, 3 for, no absensions

 

I am at a loss for words.

 

I can’t contribute to a project that feels this way.  The OMC (list at [1], a picture of some of them at [2] although it includes non-OMC members) is, in my view, on the wrong side of history. I hope that in time, the four men who voted against it will develop more – what, empathy? – and that sometime in the future this PR [3], or similar, will be merged.  Until then, I will do what I have to in order to insure that Akamai’s needs for FIPS are met and once 3.0 is released, I will be fully applying my modest talents elsewhere.

 

I have closed all non-FIPS PR’s, and as soon as I see this message in my inbox, I will unsubscribe from this list. I can be reached as rsalz at akamai.com.

 

[1] https://www.openssl.org/community/omc.html

[2] https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2019/05/23/f2f-committers-day/

[3] https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pull/12089

 

What is next, attack the jing/jang colors or renaming the night from black to colorless?

I think this black/white or master/slave thing is blowing things out of proportion.
Humans have all kind of colors, including colorless and white. And when I think of master/slave, it is just a principle - something is controlling something else. That there was a period where white people controlled the fate of "black" people is a colorless period in human history. Which should not be forgotten, but remembered as a period with lots of wrong doing to other human beings.

I understand that white people should not talk about "negros" or the like, but colorless people think they can still us this awful word. Now, who is dictating who? Don't do/say things you would not have it from others to yourself.

Black is not negative by definition, it is what your mind associate it with.

--- Frans.


-- 
A: Yes, just like that                            A: Ja, net zo
Q: Oh, Just like reading a book backwards         Q: Oh, net als een boek achterstevoren lezen
A: Because it upsets the natural flow of a story  A: Omdat het de natuurlijke gang uit het verhaal haalt
Q: Why is top-posting annoying?                   Q: Waarom is Top-posting zo irritant?
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Re: Goodbye

Matthew Heimlich-2
In reply to this post by OpenSSL - User mailing list
I see a lot of slippery slope fallacy in this thread. A small verbiage change that hurts almost no one but increases inclusivity in an open source project shouldn't be controversial to anyone but those who have an ax to grind.

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020, 8:51 AM Salz, Rich via openssl-users <[hidden email]> wrote:
  • topic: Change some words by accepting PR#12089
  •  
  • 4 against, 3 for, no absensions

 

I am at a loss for words.

 

I can’t contribute to a project that feels this way.  The OMC (list at [1], a picture of some of them at [2] although it includes non-OMC members) is, in my view, on the wrong side of history. I hope that in time, the four men who voted against it will develop more – what, empathy? – and that sometime in the future this PR [3], or similar, will be merged.  Until then, I will do what I have to in order to insure that Akamai’s needs for FIPS are met and once 3.0 is released, I will be fully applying my modest talents elsewhere.

 

I have closed all non-FIPS PR’s, and as soon as I see this message in my inbox, I will unsubscribe from this list. I can be reached as rsalz at akamai.com.

 

[1] https://www.openssl.org/community/omc.html

[2] https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2019/05/23/f2f-committers-day/

[3] https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pull/12089

 

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Re: Goodbye

Viktor Dukhovni
In reply to this post by Phillip Hallam-Baker
On Sat, Jul 04, 2020 at 03:12:15PM -0400, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

> To suggest that choice of language is irrelevant is ill-informed to
> sneer at it is plain stupid.

Let's avoid name calling (and while were' at it, actually close this
unproductive thread).

--
    VIktor.
12