Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Dr. Matthias St. Pierre


On 24.01.2018 18:32, Viktor Dukhovni wrote:

>
>> On Jan 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, Michael Richardson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> email clients are designed to handle hundreds to thousands of messages
>>> a day, Github UI isn't
> Indeed email is best for informal ad-hoc back and forth threaded
> discussion, while Github et. al. are for issue tracking.
>
> If there's a clear problem that requires tracking and resolution,
> then the right forum is Github.  If there's a topic to discuss,
> we have openssl-users.  Most openssl-dev threads were more
> appropriate for openssl-users.
>
> So I'm not convinced we need two free-form discussion lists, but
> concur that if it is discussion one wants, then email clearly
> superior to Github issue tracking.  The key question is whether
> openssl-users suffices to meet that need.
>

Although GitHub issues provide nice features like markdown and
syntax highlighting, I agree with Viktor that in general mailing lists are
much more suitable for general discussion. If nothing else, then because
they are open for everyone to read and search (via the mail archives)
and don't require a login.

So IMHO GitHub issues should remain for topics like bug reports and
specific discussions related to current pull requests.

As for the two mailing lists openssl-users and openssl-dev: It was always
my understanding that the former was for usability questions starting
from newbie questions up to very sophisticated subjects, whereas
openssl-dev was for discussion around the development process itself.
If we agree that mailing lists are preferrable to GitHub threads, then we
should not close down openssl-dev. Because openssl-project is readonly
for most developers and I don't think it would be a good idea
to join openssl-dev and openssl-users.

Matthias

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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Viktor Dukhovni


> On Jan 24, 2018, at 12:55 PM, Dr. Matthias St. Pierre <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As for the two mailing lists openssl-users and openssl-dev: It was always
> my understanding that the former was for usability questions starting
> from newbie questions up to very sophisticated subjects, whereas
> openssl-dev was for discussion around the development process itself.

Where "development process" means development of OpenSSL itself, not
software dependent on OpenSSL.  Since openssl is primarily a developer
toolkit, not end-user software, the openssl-users list is really for
developers, just not developers of OpenSSL itself.

> If we agree that mailing lists are preferrable to GitHub threads, then we
> should not close down openssl-dev.

Well, but we now have "openssl-project" for discussions of the
ongoing development of OpenSSL.  It is mostly for team members,
but though it is moderated, IIRC others can join and post.

> Because openssl-project is readonly for most developers

s/developers/users/

> and I don't think it would be a good idea to join openssl-dev
> and openssl-users.

Well, I've been on both for a long time, and mostly find that
I wish the openssl-dev posts were on openssl-users instead,
they really mostly aren't about ongoing OpenSSL development.

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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Dr. Matthias St. Pierre

On 24.01.2018 19:08, Viktor Dukhovni wrote:
>
> Well, but we now have "openssl-project" for discussions of the
> ongoing development of OpenSSL.  It is mostly for team members,
> but though it is moderated, IIRC others can join and post.
Ok, I didn't know that. If anyone seriously participating on GitHub can
join the moderated openssl-project list then this sounds like a good
replacement for openssl-dev, because that list will be more focused
and not bothered with so many misplaced posts that should have
gone to openssl-users.

Matthias

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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Viktor Dukhovni


> On Jan 24, 2018, at 1:25 PM, Dr. Matthias St. Pierre <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Ok, I didn't know that. If anyone seriously participating on GitHub can
> join the moderated openssl-project list then this sounds like a good
> replacement for openssl-dev, because that list will be more focused
> and not bothered with so many misplaced posts that should have
> gone to openssl-users.

Interested participants can sign up at:

  https://mta.openssl.org/mailman/listinfo/openssl-project

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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Michael Richardson
In reply to this post by Viktor Dukhovni

Viktor Dukhovni <[hidden email]> wrote:
    >> On Jan 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, Michael Richardson <[hidden email]> wrote:
    >>
    >>> email clients are designed to handle hundreds to thousands of messages
    >>> a day, Github UI isn't

    > Indeed email is best for informal ad-hoc back and forth threaded
    > discussion, while Github et. al. are for issue tracking.

    > If there's a clear problem that requires tracking and resolution,
    > then the right forum is Github.  If there's a topic to discuss,
    > we have openssl-users.  Most openssl-dev threads were more
    > appropriate for openssl-users.

I'm okay with taking more of the "what is the right answer" questions to
openssl-users if that's the plan.

I truly love github for many many things, but the email interface to issues
and pull requests has been a problem for me with projects like tcpdump.
I personally don't render HTML parts, and read 90% of my email via
emacsclient -nw.

Users reasonably post things. 60% are silly requests which a google search or
a "man foo" would resolve.... but it generates emails to the busiest people
only (the maintainers), skipping the other users on the list who *also* could
answer if they knew there was a well formed question.

Is there a stackexchange/serverfault?

I took to CC: tcpdump-workers when I answered github issues by email,
particularly when there was a question of project goals or policy involved.
I realized that there is a bit of a XSS/spam attack facilitated by doing that
as the magic reply-to address to get stuff posted to the github issue is now
happily archived in the ML!

Does github issue process the emails with useful quoting in them usefully? Sorta.
So, I'm skeptical, but I am willing to go with the plan.

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]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect  [
]     [hidden email]  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [


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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker-2
In reply to this post by Viktor Dukhovni
In message <[hidden email]> on Wed, 24 Jan 2018 13:08:54 -0500, Viktor Dukhovni <[hidden email]> said:

openssl-users> > If we agree that mailing lists are preferrable to
openssl-users> > GitHub threads, then we should not close down
openssl-users> > openssl-dev.
openssl-users>
openssl-users> Well, but we now have "openssl-project" for discussions
openssl-users> of the ongoing development of OpenSSL.  It is mostly
openssl-users> for team members, but though it is moderated, IIRC
openssl-users> others can join and post.

This is confusing, and not what was intended.  In other words,
openssl-project is *not* a new openssl-dev!  If it was, I don't see
why we would even bother making a new list...

From the blog entry:

> We created a new mailing list, openssl-project, that is for
> discussions about the governance and policies of OpenSSL. Anyone can
> join this list. Only members of the OMC and committers will be able
> to post.

Governance and policies (roughly speaking, 'cause there may be some
derailing that's shouldn't be there) is not, as far as I understand,
"development of OpenSSL".  It may be close, thought, such as planning
the schedule of the next release.

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OpenSSL Project         http://www.openssl.org/~levitte/
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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Viktor Dukhovni


> On Jan 25, 2018, at 5:11 AM, Richard Levitte <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This is confusing, and not what was intended.  In other words,
> openssl-project is *not* a new openssl-dev!  If it was, I don't see
> why we would even bother making a new list...

It is moderated, and won't have misplaced user questions.  Technical
topics related to the future evolution of OpenSSL should I think be
open for discussion on this list if they're not yet sufficiently
well formulated for tracking as a GitHub issue.  These might be design
ideas, clarification of requirements, ...  The point being that mailing
lists are good for *discussion* and Github is not particularly well
suited for that.

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        Viktor.

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