Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

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Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

OpenSSL - Dev mailing list
There’s a new blog post at
    https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2018/01/18/f2f-london/

It contains some important policy changes we decided at our meeting last month.  This includes:
    - Closing the openssl-dev mailing list; use GitHub for issues
    - New mailing list openssl-project for project discussions
    - New policy for accepting crypto algorithms, formats, and protocols.
    - .. several others

Please read the posting; the changes described in it affect everyone who uses OpenSSL.  Thanks for your interest, and all your efforts to help improve the project!



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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
It appears to me that you could use openssl-dev instead of openssl-project, saving cycles on killing one and creating the other.

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Uri Blumenthal

On 1/19/18, 12:35, "openssl-dev on behalf of Salz, Rich via openssl-dev" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    There’s a new blog post at
        https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2018/01/18/f2f-london/
   
    It contains some important policy changes we decided at our meeting last month.  This includes:
        - Closing the openssl-dev mailing list; use GitHub for issues
        - New mailing list openssl-project for project discussions
        - New policy for accepting crypto algorithms, formats, and protocols.
        - .. several others
   
    Please read the posting; the changes described in it affect everyone who uses OpenSSL.  Thanks for your interest, and all your efforts to help improve the project!
   
   
   
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    To unsubscribe: https://mta.openssl.org/mailman/listinfo/openssl-dev
   

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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

OpenSSL - Dev mailing list
➢ It appears to me that you could use openssl-dev instead of openssl-project, saving cycles on killing one and creating the other.
   
We discussed that, but it would be harder to “undo” if things don’t work out, we wanted to make it very clear that this is a new way of operating, and openssl-project is a moderated list.  Make sense?

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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
On 1/19/18, 12:52, "Salz, Rich" <[hidden email]> wrote:

 >> It appears to me that you could use openssl-dev instead of openssl-project, saving cycles on killing
>> one and creating the other.
>
>  We discussed that, but it would be harder to “undo” if things don’t work out, we wanted
>   to make it very clear that this is a new way of operating, and openssl-project is a
>   moderated list.  Make sense?

I don’t know. I’d still do as I said. But since you guys discussed it (i.e., debated this option), I’ll defer to your judgment.
   

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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Hubert Kario
In reply to this post by OpenSSL - Dev mailing list
On Friday, 19 January 2018 18:34:57 CET Salz, Rich via openssl-dev wrote:
> There’s a new blog post at
>     https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2018/01/18/f2f-london/

> We decided to increase our use of GitHub. In addition to asking that all bug
> reports and enhancement requests be reported as issues, we now want all
> major code proposals to be discussed as issues before a large pull request
> shows up. This will let the community discuss the feature, offer input on
> design and such, before having code to look at. We hope this will let us
> all first look at the bigger picture, before getting bogged down in the
> weeds of line-by-line code reviews.

does that mean I have to subscribe to all notifications from the openssl
github project to notice them? that's really suboptimal

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Hubert Kario
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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Dmitry Belyavsky-3
Hello, 

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 3:00 PM, Hubert Kario <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Friday, 19 January 2018 18:34:57 CET Salz, Rich via openssl-dev wrote:
> There’s a new blog post at
>     https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2018/01/18/f2f-london/

> We decided to increase our use of GitHub. In addition to asking that all bug
> reports and enhancement requests be reported as issues, we now want all
> major code proposals to be discussed as issues before a large pull request
> shows up. This will let the community discuss the feature, offer input on
> design and such, before having code to look at. We hope this will let us
> all first look at the bigger picture, before getting bogged down in the
> weeds of line-by-line code reviews.

does that mean I have to subscribe to all notifications from the openssl
github project to notice them? that's really suboptimal

Totally agree. 


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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

OpenSSL - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by Hubert Kario
You should be able to just watch the openssl repo (the eyeball/watch notice in the upper-right side)

On 1/23/18, 7:00 AM, "Hubert Kario" <[hidden email]> wrote:

    On Friday, 19 January 2018 18:34:57 CET Salz, Rich via openssl-dev wrote:
    > There’s a new blog post at
    >     https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2018/01/18/f2f-london/
   
    > We decided to increase our use of GitHub. In addition to asking that all bug
    > reports and enhancement requests be reported as issues, we now want all
    > major code proposals to be discussed as issues before a large pull request
    > shows up. This will let the community discuss the feature, offer input on
    > design and such, before having code to look at. We hope this will let us
    > all first look at the bigger picture, before getting bogged down in the
    > weeds of line-by-line code reviews.
   
    does that mean I have to subscribe to all notifications from the openssl
    github project to notice them? that's really suboptimal
   
    --
    Regards,
    Hubert Kario
    Senior Quality Engineer, QE BaseOS Security team
    Web: www.cz.redhat.com
    Red Hat Czech s.r.o., Purkyňova 115, 612 00  Brno, Czech Republic

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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Jan Ehrhardt
In reply to this post by OpenSSL - Dev mailing list
Salz, Rich via open ssl-dev in gmane.comp.encryption.openssl.devel
(Fri, 19 Jan 2018 17:34:57 +0000):
>    - New mailing list openssl-project for project discussions

For the lovers of NNTP: openssl-project has been added to news.gmane.org
as gmane.comp.encryption.openssl.project as readonly list.
--
Jan

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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Hubert Kario
In reply to this post by OpenSSL - Dev mailing list
On Tuesday, 23 January 2018 15:22:13 CET Salz, Rich wrote:
> You should be able to just watch the openssl repo (the eyeball/watch notice
> in the upper-right side)

that's what I was talking about

this feature sends notifications about _all_ conversations happening.

> On 1/23/18, 7:00 AM, "Hubert Kario" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>     On Friday, 19 January 2018 18:34:57 CET Salz, Rich via openssl-dev
> wrote:
>     > There’s a new blog post at
>     >
>     >     https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2018/01/18/f2f-london/
>
>    
>
>     > We decided to increase our use of GitHub. In addition to asking that
>     > all bug
>     > reports and enhancement requests be reported as issues, we
>     > now want all major code proposals to be discussed as issues before a
>     > large pull request shows up. This will let the community discuss the
>     > feature, offer input on design and such, before having code to look
>     > at. We hope this will let us all first look at the bigger picture,
>     > before getting bogged down in the weeds of line-by-line code reviews.
>
>    
>     does that mean I have to subscribe to all notifications from the openssl
>
> github project to notice them? that's really suboptimal
>    
>     --
>     Regards,
>     Hubert Kario
>     Senior Quality Engineer, QE BaseOS Security team
>     Web: www.cz.redhat.com
>     Red Hat Czech s.r.o., Purkyňova 115, 612 00  Brno, Czech Republic
>

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Regards,
Hubert Kario
Senior Quality Engineer, QE BaseOS Security team
Web: www.cz.redhat.com
Red Hat Czech s.r.o., Purkyňova 115, 612 00  Brno, Czech Republic
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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

OpenSSL - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by Jan Ehrhardt

➢     For the lovers of NNTP: openssl-project has been added to news.gmane.org
    as gmane.comp.encryption.openssl.project as readonly list.
 
I will always have a fondness for NNTP :)  But that reminds me to nudge the other mailing list distributors, and update the website.  Thanks!

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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Hubert Kario
In reply to this post by Hubert Kario
On Tuesday, 23 January 2018 15:36:26 CET Salz, Rich wrote:
> ➢ this feature sends notifications about _all_ conversations happening.
>    
> For me, I get the actual comments that are posted.  Don’t you?

when I comment in an issue/PR or mark it as followed I'm getting only messages
from that issue/PR

when I mark project as followed I'm getting messages from all issues and all
PRs - likely dozens if not hundred messages a day

> On the
> mailing list, you have to explicitly mark/junk conversation threads in your
> mail program.  You would still have to do that here.
 
> I don’t understand what you see as different?

that marking a conversation as ignored and going to next one is two key
combinations and less than a second, github ones require me to go to the web
UI which is slow, and if I have to view the issue because subject is ambiguous
it takes ten times as long as it does when using email

email clients are designed to handle hundreds to thousands of messages a day,
Github UI isn't

or to put it other way: github notifications are perfect if you are directly
involved in the project, they suck if you just want to keep tabs on an active
project
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Web: www.cz.redhat.com
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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Dr. Matthias St. Pierre
On 23.01.2018 15:54, Hubert Kario wrote:
> On Tuesday, 23 January 2018 15:36:26 CET Salz, Rich wrote:
>> ➢ this feature sends notifications about _all_ conversations happening.
>>    
>> For me, I get the actual comments that are posted.  Don’t you?
> when I comment in an issue/PR or mark it as followed I'm getting only messages
> from that issue/PR
>
> when I mark project as followed I'm getting messages from all issues and all
> PRs - likely dozens if not hundred messages a day

Have you checked Github > Settings > Emails > Email preferences ? 
Maybe yours are set to "Receive all emails"?

My settings are as follows:

       ( )  Receive all emails, except those I unsubscribe from.

       (*) Only receive account related emails, and those I subscribe to.

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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

OpenSSL - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by Hubert Kario
➢  github ones require me to go to the web
    UI which is slow

I am confused by that.  When someone posts an issue or comment, I get the text emailed to me.  Not just openssl, but all projects I watch.




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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Hubert Kario
On Tuesday, 23 January 2018 16:13:30 CET Salz, Rich wrote:
> ➢  github ones require me to go to the web
>     UI which is slow
>
> I am confused by that.  When someone posts an issue or comment, I get the
> text emailed to me.  Not just openssl, but all projects I watch.
 
ah, true, I have those disabled because I use the same account for both my
personal and my work projects so no single email address is correct for them

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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

OpenSSL - Dev mailing list
➢ ah, true, I have those disabled because I use the same account for both my
    personal and my work projects so no single email address is correct for them
   
At least we figured out the confusion!

I have no good answer other than subject line filtering and forwarding, sorry.

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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Florian Weimer
In reply to this post by Hubert Kario
* Hubert Kario:

> when I mark project as followed I'm getting messages from all issues
> and all PRs - likely dozens if not hundred messages a day

But isn't that the point?

My main concern with Github is that I have no record of my own
actions.  (Their single-account policy is also a problem for some of
us, but that is perhaps our own fault.)
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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker-2
In reply to this post by OpenSSL - Dev mailing list
In message <[hidden email]> on Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:38:14 +0000, "Salz, Rich via openssl-dev" <[hidden email]> said:

openssl-dev>
openssl-dev> ➢     For the lovers of NNTP: openssl-project has been added to news.gmane.org
openssl-dev>     as gmane.comp.encryption.openssl.project as readonly list.
openssl-dev>  
openssl-dev> I will always have a fondness for NNTP :)

...  except for the trashing of the database disk(s) back in the days
if you're running a server...  (I did)  (on VMS ;-))

But yeah, totally agree otherwise

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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Michael Richardson
In reply to this post by Hubert Kario

Hubert Kario <[hidden email]> wrote:
    > that marking a conversation as ignored and going to next one is two key
    > combinations and less than a second, github ones require me to go to
    > the web UI which is slow, and if I have to view the issue because
    > subject is ambiguous it takes ten times as long as it does when using
    > email

+1

    > email clients are designed to handle hundreds to thousands of messages
    > a day, Github UI isn't


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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Viktor Dukhovni


> On Jan 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, Michael Richardson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> email clients are designed to handle hundreds to thousands of messages
>> a day, Github UI isn't

Indeed email is best for informal ad-hoc back and forth threaded
discussion, while Github et. al. are for issue tracking.

If there's a clear problem that requires tracking and resolution,
then the right forum is Github.  If there's a topic to discuss,
we have openssl-users.  Most openssl-dev threads were more
appropriate for openssl-users.

So I'm not convinced we need two free-form discussion lists, but
concur that if it is discussion one wants, then email clearly
superior to Github issue tracking.  The key question is whether
openssl-users suffices to meet that need.

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Re: Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

Steffen Nurpmeso-2
Viktor Dukhovni <[hidden email]> wrote:
 |> On Jan 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, Michael Richardson <[hidden email]> wrote:
 |>> email clients are designed to handle hundreds to thousands of messages
 |>> a day, Github UI isn't
 |
 |Indeed email is best for informal ad-hoc back and forth threaded
 |discussion, while Github et. al. are for issue tracking.
 |
 |If there's a clear problem that requires tracking and resolution,
 |then the right forum is Github.  If there's a topic to discuss,
 |we have openssl-users.  Most openssl-dev threads were more
 |appropriate for openssl-users.

I see an overwhelming amount of posts on the new list which where
somehow missed on -dev, though.

As a general note that you might not know, from Germany at least
and over my internet account and being not a logged in user i find
that github very often fails to generate commit data or cuts
directory listings.  At least there are no advertisings which
consume multiple CPUs for who-knows-what.

 |So I'm not convinced we need two free-form discussion lists, but
 |concur that if it is discussion one wants, then email clearly
 |superior to Github issue tracking.  The key question is whether
 |openssl-users suffices to meet that need.

Oh, -dev was a terribly noisy list.  So: ch-ch-ch-ch-changes
(turn and face the strange).

Congratulations for the price you have won.  Especially so in
respect to, brave new world!, having to go over browser based
issue tracker interfaces.  I could not do that.

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,                The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter           he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)
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